How are traditional codes of masculinity responsible for a widespread feeling of loneliness among men? What are the origins and impacts of this so-called “toxic” masculinity? And above all, what can be done to turn things around? Mickaël Carlier, a social entrepreneur, author, and speaker, hopes to give a voice to positive masculinity by tackling these issues.
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Hello, Mickaël. We first knew you as the head of Novae, a media outlet that was dedicated to business practices with a social impact for 16 years. Recently, you founded a site called Des hommes qui changent, a non-profit organization with the objective of promoting positive masculinity. What do you mean by that?
Mickaël carlier
“These days, we talk a lot about problems related to masculinity or masculinities: violence, the societal problems associated with it. The question, therefore, is: how can we talk about masculinity differently, but above all, how can we invent another type of masculinity? Masculinity, and even femininity, come from the patriarchy or certain demands of society. We construct our identity according to certain codes that don’t belong to us personally. We learn that we have to be “like that” to be a man, which is obviously harmful to women, but also to men, and that’s a bit of what I want to highlight. We, too, are prisoners of these patterns, and it would be in our interest to reinvent masculinity.”
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Did you say “masculinities?”
Mickaël carlier
“ Yes, because on one hand, I don’t have THE recipe, like anyone else. And it’s also because masculinity is a continuum: there are several ways of being a man, and some are more damaging to society than others.”
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And where do these ways of being a man come from? Are they innate?
Mickaël carlier
“I’m reading a lot about the subject, and the literature teaches us that there are very few behaviours that are biological. They’re mainly socially constructed. But it’s true that some men still use the biology argument to justify their problematic behaviours, while they have in front of them an opportunity to reinvent their ways of doing things, since they are learned and not innate.”
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What are the problems with current masculine social codes?
Mickaël carlier
“We’re told that to be a man, we have to disconnect from our emotions. That we have to be strong, courageous, available, especially in the world of work… infallible, ultimately! And to get there, we learn to detach completely from ourselves—or in any event, mostly. What women know how to do—that is, connect to their emotions, their feelings—as men, we’re told that this is not good.”
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And how do we deconstruct these codes?
Mickaël carlier
“The idea behind Des hommes qui changent is to create a platform, a space for discussion and reflection on masculinity or masculinities. Because the problem is systemic: men haven’t had space to vent their frustrations, and the emotion they know is anger, because the other emotions, they haven’t been taught to recognize them and make something out of them. And even anger, what do they do with it? It’s just a heap of rage. In my opinion, there is a great collective opportunity to work with men to bring about major social change.”
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Do you think there is enough openness among people—men and women—to bring about this change?
Mickaël carlier
“Yes. And I hope that the men who are going to do the work will then be able to talk about it to their brothers, cousins, and that the word spreads, instead of it still being women who have to carry the message. Can we finally have male ambassadors?
“I get the feeling that I would have understood things much faster if it had been guy friends who had talked to me about them. I have plenty of feminist friends, but I felt the finger pointed at me a lot as a man, and rightly so. Except, obviously, that didn’t put me in a position of openness… On the other hand, if we talk among men, we can understand each other, talk about our frustrations, and take action afterward.”
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What can you tell us about male loneliness?
Mickaël carlier
“I think loneliness is THE thing all men have in common. And that’s normal. As for myself, I’ve experienced it and I’m still experiencing it, to a certain extent. We cut our- selves off from our emotions, so we’re incapable of knowing what’s going on inside and unable to tell others about it. That doesn’t help us feel less alone. We mustn’t express what we feel, we have to be strong: it’s untenable as a situation. We become pressure cookers ready to explode at any minute.”
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Among women, our friends often offer us a space to open up, share what we feel, and confide in each other. Would you say that this is also the case for men?
Mickaël carlier
“Absolutely not. No, the answer is definitely no. Among men, you should never take the risk of being too intimate, because if that’s the case, it means you’re gay, and you absolutely can’t be gay in our patriarchal system. Unfortunately, we’re still caught up in this mindset today.
“All the men I talk to tell me that if they were able to confide in anyone, it was their spouse. That’s another commonality: the confidante is the spouse. The day the spouse leaves or there’s a breakup, there’s no one left. We return to loneliness.
“And the guy friends, they’ll go play sports, they’ll go to the restaurant, they’ll go for a bike ride, but talking about intimacy, sexual problems, money problems, health problems? Men don’t talk about that.”
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So, this means that men can spend time together, but it remains superficial?
Mickaël carlier
“Exactly. I’ve been organizing men’s talking circles for a few months. Recently, one of them explained to us that he had just returned from a weekend at a cottage. He had spent three days with friends. Only his guy friends, no spouses. And yet, he was incapable of telling us how each of them was doing; they had said nothing of substance to each other for three days at a cottage.”
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How do you explain that?
Mickaël carlier
“Because it’s prohibited in the masculine codes that come from the patriarchy. Because there’s no place for that; we’re not taught that language. What emotion can we put on what lies within us, apart from anger and “I’m frustrated?” We don’t learn those words. And I’ve written a book, so I have a good vocabulary! But to talk about that, I see that it’s a task that I’ve been developing in recent years. “I’m not feeling well inside” doesn’t say much. It says the start of something, but it’s not enough. So, to then develop a real conversation between men, we don’t have the vocabulary, we don’t have the ease, so we don’t let ourselves go there.”
